Reference discussion below. Previously sent out via e-mail on 8/31.
OK,
While I had some nice fun last night, I had some observations I thought I'd share…
Firstly, playing Mantlet and then playing Flambeau Noir was an interesting comparison. In the future, Mantlet's gonna hang with Orleans and Cacaphony. Flam's just not a good fit. Granted there's no downside to being defeated now that none of our 50's are earning XP, but both Caca and Orleans were defeated wayyy more with Flam than with Mantlet. Eric and I chatted a bit about it before logging off last night, but there are a couple things that stick out in my mind…
1.) Mantlet is mostly single-target, Flam is mostly multi-target. That means Mantlet generally doesn't seek out big groups, which limits aggro and spill-over onto the rest of the team. Flam's main mode of attack is the opposite, looking for big spawns and jumping in. Which is great when they stay put, but Orleans and Cacaphony's attacks have a ton of knockback, which scatters the clump and results in aggro management problems due to the size of the spawn. Not good. Mantlet's slower approach at the OUTSIDE edge of the spawn allows for better control.
2.) Flam is acres tougher than Mantlet in a fight. He had a sea of purple beating on him in several of those missions and he didn't go down. That's a problem, because even with Mantlet's somewhat less tough demeanor, his situation is often mirrored by Caca and Orleans. He takes more damage, but he's got more HP to make up for it. That linear scaling means I have a better idea when we are getting in trouble. For me, that helps quite a bit.
3.) The most critical difference is that Flambeau has no soft control in any of his attacks. Mantlet has knockback/knockup galore in his attack chain. As such, when someone is at-risk I can bounce their opponents around like superballs and then slam them to the pavement with Footstomp. That control element makes Mantlet a far superior Alpha Tank for a small team. Flam can work wonders as a Beta Tank on a team, but he just cannot control the opponents with aggro control/knockback the way Mantlet can. That's probably the biggest contributor to the team defeats last night.
4.) Flambeau is most effective facing +3 or lower foes, as his high-damage attack chain and AoEs can drop them quickly. I was whiffing like hell with him last night against +5's, which is fracking scary considering his attacks have roughly a +46% accuracy bonus with an added +36% accuracy (global) bonus from the IO sets. Flam should have been smacking stuff left and right with those bonuses. Granted a lot of the Ritki were bubbled (damn Guardians) and those Drones are freaking impossible to hit anyway. Mantlet does best when facing +5's and purple foes. The to-hit bonus from Rage coupled with his L50 Accuracy IO's and enhanced by the to-hit bonus from Invincibility means he can lay the smack down on just about anything he fights… Reliably. Quite simply, Flam shines with large volumes of mid-range foes. Mantlet shines when fighting fewer, tougher opponents.
Anyway, I'm looking forward to either Task Force or Mothership Raids. I want to see us hand those damn Ritki their come-uppance… : ) Mantlet will be there for those. Flam's gonna go back in the stable for a while.
Thursday, August 30, 2007
Comparing Mantlet and Flambeau Noir
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3 comments:
Another factor to consider is that Flam aggros EVERYTHING in the general area, which led to much bigger groups. Combine that with the ranged attacks that every Rikti has and it leaves a lot more on the fringe for us to deal with. That's fine when it's minions out there, but throw in one mezzer or multiple drones/gunmen or all of the above and that's it for us. Hold, multiple attacks, repeat until target hits the dirt.
I think invincible's taunt aura is better than the fire aura, or at least bigger. I can knock mobs off of Mantlet and they go right back to him, but not Flam. The fact that Flam aggros so much also has something to do with it. He'd have a giant pile on him but I couldn't hit an AOE without a bunch flying back and switching aggro. I think after Rob left I started to get a feel for it. Take care of the guys on the outskirts first, rather than slam the pile with an AOE like I do with Mantlet. After the stragglers are down, hit an AOE then close to pick off the ones that fly off. I wasn't using Build Up as much because that seemed to increase the percentage knocked back. It was still hard, though.
So I think you're being a little hard on the guy. It just takes longer to adjust than a few hours, especially when you don't realize the need for an adjustment until about halfway in. Rob and I were also talking earlier about how the two of us have come to rely on knockback more than we should. Plus it looks awesome. It's hard to give that up. I agree with your take on the mechanics, but I don't think it's anything we couldn't overcome.
Having said that, it would be a pain to learn a new playstyle and new tactics when we're in such a groove with Mantlet.
A blaster without knockback, a kinetic def/troller and Flam would be a dream team of DPS. Gives me goose bumps.
Rob Said (via e-mail):
I thought Flam was a great partner with Fritter. Flam could agro, Fritter hold or immobilize, and Flam knock the AOE hell of them. That was a decent match. I’m kind of sorry Marzi didn’t keep leveling pace.
Flam and Fjord, even with Fjord SKed was a poor match, but for entirely different reasons. By the time it would take a power to manifest on Fjord, with no lag (the time between when hitting the key and when the blast blow was delivered), Flam would have already AOEd a whole pack, making certain that 50% to 75% of the ice blasts were shot, for nothing, at a corpse. All means to an end perhaps, but that END on Fjord could have been used to continue the fight into the next group. While I know the die is cast as to hit or miss an NPC at the moment it’s toggled, not the moment the animation is over, the truth is the Fjord/Flam combo became an exercise in when to hit the keys vs. when to toggle three deep in the group. That’s an exercise I don’t mind at all when things are effectual, but with Flam it was a bit of a guessing game. We did plenty of damage. I don’t think Flam realized though that most of that damage was his. I started using control elements far more often than straight blasts when partnered.
We shouldn’t be surprised at that, though. Caca, Or, and Mant were build and adjusted to compliment each other from scratch. Progression choices came from the needs of the group and what situations would arrive most often. With normal rep. Caca can do little solo and that’s the reason. Similarly Fjord and Rickey, while not started at the exact same time, did progress together in a semi-planned fashion. Steel entering into that trio, so long as he was hitting, could only have been the positive asset that it was. There was no possible downfall to the later addition. Flam kind of came up in a vacuum. Flam does what he does pursuant to all the solo stuff Greg is able to squeeze in between kids and bed nightly. We shouldn’t be shocked if the fit isn’t right. He can’t play Flam the same way he plays Mant, yet knowing the three of us in RL let us somewhat think he could. Or and Caca weren’t adjusting to Flam, just playing as we always do. We still fit as players, but as toon matches there should be no shock we couldn’t work it in a night. Seriously, when playing vacuum oriented Flam alongside Or and Caca, what’s the real toon based difference between playing Or and Caca on a PUG of three? None. The difference is all player based.
I only point this synergy issue out for the millionth time because of the slowly shaping plans we want for Triumph. I don’t know about anybody else, but while I am focusing on fun first, I realize the responsibilities of being a primary melee toon. I’m sure we’ll team build to fit play styles, scratching out synergy from the get-go, but I am actually a tad of a nervous wreck about class and power sets choice. Fun to me means different and interesting, but if the key is damage or staying power then I’m basically building familiar repeats with a different costume, origin, and backstory. I’m a variant on a theme. CLEAVE!
Yeah, the pick-up-groups I have played with Flam have been hit or miss.
The ones that do not rely on knockback are by far the best. On a team without Knockback, Flambeau is like some kind of ancient vengeful fire-god come to earth to punish the wicked. His big AoEs grab aggro in a large area. Against foes that like to charge into melee range, he's awesome. And, since he is just that freaking tough, generally I was kind of a rolling front-man for the teams. I'd hit a spawn, blast it to hell in short order, and then move to the next. The team would follow behind picking off the singed foes drafting behind me as I went to the next spawn. See, that's how he mitigates team damage... By "arresting" them quickly, dealing large damage to hold their attention, and by herding to locations where team AoEs can wipe out large groups of foes. And yes, with a Kinetics hero buffing him, I can cycle his AoEs continuously without endurance problems. Once something gets in AoE range, it doesn't leave. Period. Our little trio is not designed that way (with knockback and all).
Which is fine by me. Oh, and I can verify Eric's statement that the taunt radius for Invincibility is bigger. It's almost twice as big as Blazing Aura. Being a non-damage taunt aura, it's the biggest radius for all of the Tank primaries, IIRC.
I like playing with the synergy that Cacaphony/Mantlet/Orleans have built up. It's a sweet thing and we mesh effortlessly together. For big raids/task force events, we definitely need to run with them. It's a lot of fun running a Task Force that you're exemplared down for. Makes you appreciate those higher level powers when you get done. Bigtime.
Flambeau's probably gonna be my high-level ace-in-the-hole for our SG. When he gets to 50 he's gonna be downright scary and we could use him for some big events, mentoring, and for farming Tier-3 salvage and Prestige (if needed). He's already got 8 Essence of the Furies in the Vault, so the rare salvage is just piling up. That influence/salvage may come in handy later on.
As far as Rob's concerns about the new characters, let me offer this...
I'm going to work around you on this one. Pick whatever you want and I'll find something that meshes with it.
I suspect Eric's going to be the same. Since you have the most time-restrictions (new job, impending baby, etc.) that's only fair. Pick something fun, which seems to be new/different for you. Don't stress about power combinations, etc. Eric and I can work that out. The nice thing about a Scrapper is that there really is no "gimped" set. It's a regular tongue-in-cheek statement on the Scrapper forums that the "best" Scrapper build is (any primary) + (any secondary). They all work great together. A melee-based powerset will be a real change of pace for you. I can't wait for you to experience "scrapper-lock" firsthand... : ) One of the nice things about Scrappers is that they are so very versatile. Don't stress about it, just pick a fun concept build and go for it.
Example: The current proposed team is balanced around your Dark/Dark Scrapper idea. Eric's Illusion/Rad Controller will have a crapload of debuffs to help you stay alive and his minions at later levels will spread the aggro around so we can handle larger groups of foes. My Electric/Electric Blaster is designed to complement that with endurance drains and holds, sacrificing raw damage for control elements and melee support. The character picks that Eric and I made mitigate the need for a Tank in the team, allowing your Scrapper to lead the way.
If you decide to change your mind, fine. If you want to play another Defender, fine. It's all about fun. Specifically what you find fun. That was my reason behind rolling Flambeau. I wanted another Tank to play with since I like them so much. Don't let our ideas get in the way of that. We can collaborate on alternatives that make everyone happy. CoH is not about grinding away at something you don't enjoy. It's about getting together with your buddies to have fun. It's the fun factor and my love for comic books that keeps me enthralled with the game. That and the costume selection tool is it's own mini-game... : )
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